Supportive Walking and Threat Circuits with Andrew Hale

Andrew Hale joins Victoria to discuss the profound impact of Sarah Fisher on the dog training community, emphasizing the importance of curiosity in both personal and professional development. They explore the joy of working with dogs, the concept of supportive walking, and the significance of understanding a dog's internal environment. 

The conversation also delves into the complexities of threat circuits and how they affect both humans and dogs, highlighting the need for a compassionate approach in dog training. Finally, they touch on the value of conferences and community in fostering growth and learning in the field of animal behavior.

Links to conferences mentioned in podcast:

• Emotional Wellbeing in Animals Conference 2026, Torquay
• Dog Behavior Conference - Registration now open!

• Book your seat for the 2026 Dog Behavior Conference here.

• Launch or level up your career as a professional dog trainer with the Victoria Stilwell Academy. Learn more here.

• Create your free Positively account here.

• Solve behavior problems and find tools to help live your best dog life at Positively.com.

Transcript

Victoria (00:09)
Hi everybody and welcome to the podcast. I am here with the incredible Andrew Hale. I know that he is a favorite. Everybody loves hearing Andy speak and he's a certified animal behaviorist, owner of Train Positive, founding member of the UK Dog Behavior and Training Charter. He is speaking at the Dog Behavior Conference this year, ⁓ an introduction to supportive walking, which I'm going to talk to him about.

I am so excited for this. It's the practical application of a dog-centered approach when supporting dogs on a walk. And my goodness, as our environments get busier, especially if you live in the suburbs or in the cities, our dogs and ourselves need that. So, Andy, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're back. We need to chat. It's always wonderful speaking to you because you bring just such an amazing perspective to all of this.

Andrew Hale (01:07)
Hi Vic, thanks for having me back. Always good to speak.

Victoria (01:10)
Well, first of all, before we do, we talk about supportive walking and we talk about dogs and our favorite subject. We, as people know on this podcast, I've listened to this podcast, who are huge fans of Sarah Fisher, that you were particularly close with her. And I wanted you to be able to share your thoughts and your memories about her.

Andrew Hale (01:44)
Well, you know, ⁓ where do I start on that? think, I don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say that a lot of my kind of professional ⁓ kind of success was down to Sarah. There's no two ways about that really because when I moved over into working with dogs, ⁓

And I started having some of these kind of thoughts that we do about things. ⁓ it was Sarah who really encouraged me to go with those thoughts. She encouraged me to do things that I felt were out of my comfort zone. ⁓ She encouraged me to put out the Phantom of the Operant article that I put out, I think it was about seven years ago now, crazy how time goes. Yeah, so that's Sarah. And ⁓ this is...

Victoria (02:31)
Seven years, gosh.

Andrew Hale (02:39)
We can talk about Sarah's work very simply actually in as far as it's very much underpinned by this notion of being curious, staying curious. And the beautiful thing about Sarah was that she applied that to people too. She was also curious about who we are and what we wanted to do. ⁓ And ⁓ she always kind of opened up those opportunities for people. And that's a real special gift, I think. And being so generous as she was with her knowledge around

around dogs and observations and animals more widely. She also had a generosity of spirit for people and their own personal development. She never saw anybody as competition or as being, there was never any kind of agenda there with Sarah. And I'm just really, and I, we're both still processing the loss and...

⁓ You know, even though we had the opportunity to know ahead of time a little bit, and it still doesn't make it any less devastating, but I just think at the moment I'm kind of falling into a space of just feeling what a privilege it was to have got to know her and see her as a friend and to have those opportunities to talk about things beyond dogs actually and to connect in that way and...

I know she got to know and love Van and she did exactly same with Kieran. And this is something else as well. I remember when I first met her with Kieran, we met for lunch and I said to Kieran, because I'm always apologizing to Kieran that whenever I meet any of my dog friends that, doesn't really, exactly, yeah, yeah, But you know what? I didn't get a word in. Sarah and Kieran, just, I think you said something similar with Van, Sarah and Kieran, just kind of hit it off straight away and.

Victoria (04:17)
You're gonna talk about dogs.

Andrew Hale (04:29)
And they filled the whole time with this beautifully rich conversation about all sorts of things. And that's just, that's just Sarah. We're going to miss her deeply. uh, you know, uh, I'm taking a little bit time out at the moment while I still process things. But when I do get back to things, I'll have a, an extra vigor there, I think to try and honor a lot of the things that I was taught from her to make sure that we keep getting that message out of being curious and being kind.

Victoria (04:53)
There's a huge influence on so many people's lives. And I think you're right. It's not just in the dog world. It was beyond that way beyond that. And I do remember, yeah. mean, Van and her boy, they both could talk and did they talk and, but it was, I just, she loved it. She loved engaging in discussion. She loved when you were speaking with her.

It was a genuine, she genuinely wanted to know about you or know about how you felt. She was invested. When you were speaking to her, you felt like you were the only person in the room. She was looking directly at you. There are so many people that don't have time for you, that just, know, hello, hello, hello, and then they're off. And they don't really, they don't really care. They're not really that invested in hearing maybe your point of view or what you have to say. Sarah was.

And I think you're right with that curiosity. She was curious. That is the biggest gift that you can have, I think in life is this curiosity, but because it keeps you enriched and you, you, you love gaining information and learning from other people and learning from situations. And I think you're right, Andy.

There was that curiosity that just, that was her driver. A love of people, a love of animals. How blessed we were to know her.

Andrew Hale (06:29)
That's the thing, isn't it? I think it was a real privilege. think, you know, and many people were touched by her, by her teachings, by her work, by her attitudes, know, Tilly Farm, very magical place. I know you went there last summer, went there and everybody that went there, you know, felt that because Sarah created that environment, that environment where you could be and not feel judged ⁓ and, you know, you could share your observations and she'd be like, that's really interesting, not.

that's wrong. There was never any wrongness from Sarah. It's always, that's interesting. ⁓ And then be interested in how your perception came about to have that observation. So it's all these layers, isn't there? All these layers. And I think this is something that's really heavily kind of embedded in my work, this notion of continuing to be curious and just ask different questions. And that's something else with Sarah. was happy to ask questions that she might not necessarily have the answers for.

Victoria (07:25)
feel when I'm sort of bogged down with pressures or a lot of work and you you and I were talking just before we came on this podcast of like the pressures of work and always just being, you know, driven and the mission. And when you stop being curious, that can dampen your curiosity when you forget about you and

You, you didn't become, you're not curious anymore because you're so bogged down and all of the other stuff that you're dealing with. And I, and I feel the happiest when I'm in that curious, curious mindset. It reminds me of dogs that when they are enriched, that is being curious when we are enriching them, they are.

We're in enabling them and giving them the space to be curious. When we're, when we inhibit them so much, they don't have that ability to be curious. I feel like hemmed in. can, I can absolutely right now when it's just, you know, it's work and work and work and work. My, I'm not the happiest because my curiosity is dampened. Do you see what I mean?

Andrew Hale (08:52)
I do, and think there's something about that curiosity about being in the now as well, because, you know, when we're with those dogs, when we're doing our work, that's when we come alive. And then when we step back into our lives, if we're not careful, we get bogged down with the...

with the little details of life, know, with the kind of general kind of everyday humdrum stuff that comes along and it dampens that again. So actually having those opportunities, that's what that's the magic of some of the work we do actually. And I think we can detach that over time. We were talking about this a little bit before we came on air that, you know, when we kind of get working and we build a bit of a platform and we do various things, reminds me a little bit about my husband actually, because, you know, he works in care, but he comes alive when he's with the patient.

But when he's in, when he's got to write reports, when he's got to get on that computer, when he's got to do stock ordering, that's when it becomes a chore. And I think that's the same with us. So I think we have to all the professionals listening, especially, think we have to make sure that we have the, set our structure up of how we work to give ourselves the maximum opportunity to get that joy of being curious and staying in the moment and not get too bogged down with the other stuff. Cause we can easily get bogged down by the other stuff.

Victoria (10:06)
You know, I think also the, I don't train as much as I used to or work with dogs as much as I used to because I'm teaching, because I'm developing, because I'm, you know, doing, ⁓ production work or stuff. I I'm very much behind the computer. I'm doing a lot of writing, course creation, that kind of like, I feel as much as I, I love creating.

I'm an, I said to my husband the other day, I'm like, I'm in, I'm in the field person. I need to be in the field. I need to be around dogs. I need to be working with dogs. I need to be out there again. But because of my, what's in my, my business, I'm doing a lot of that, which I'm not supposed to be behind a computer. That's not me. I'm not supposed to be sitting there writing, writing, writing stuff. And that.

is not me. I'm out in the field but I'm not getting that chance as much as I used to of being out in the field and I miss it.

Andrew Hale (11:15)
Yeah, I think that's an important lesson for all of us, I think, because there's only so much curiosity you can have over a spreadsheet. I think it is a part, we've got to nourish ourselves, think. There's so many people that I speak to and I do a bit of mentoring now and colleagues who get very overwhelmed by the business side of things, especially when you're a sole trader and you're dog trainer, but you get involved in all these kinds of things.

Victoria (11:25)
Yeah, go.

Andrew Hale (11:44)
⁓ And it doesn't have to be that hard, I don't think, on those kinds of things. We have to get that balance right between, we need to have a structure around us so we can work as a business, but we mustn't forget about why we're doing it and what that purpose is about. I think it's an important reminder for all of us. And ⁓ to make the most of the days we have, I think this is the key, know, what we can do with our life.

Victoria (12:09)
Right. And working with dogs is when, yeah, it's when I come alive too. You know, even doing it on television, it's me or the dog, all the minutiae of doing the interviews and the this and the that and the blah, blah, blah. When I come alive is when I'm actually working with the dog and the people. I mean, I absolutely love it. But when I'm imparting information, when I'm teaching, when I'm seeing this dog just light up, that is when I'm alive. All the other stuff.

That doesn't, that doesn't bring me joy. And so you're right. When we are from the small business owner to the larger business owner, because we're running these businesses, we become stuck, stuck in that. And when we become stuck, we're not

We don't have as much joy as we once did. I see that as well of people who are running successful businesses, as well as those that are struggling with businesses, they are stuck in that. They're always thinking about that. Even if they are going out and walking with their dogs or they're still stuck in that because they come home to that. And we always say from Van and I, every day's a Thursday.

Cause we're like, what weekends? Sorry, what weekends? But it is being a bit more or having that ability to go, you know what? That can, that can stop for the evening. Let us just focus on doing something joyful or having fun. Not very good at that. I have to say.

But I try.

Andrew Hale (13:56)
But that's where the dogs help us out, think. think so this is a good little reminder for all of us, think that, you know, the world's a bit of a tough place. So for me, especially as a difficult place to inhabit, let's get off our screens, let's get off our tablets and let's go and do some time with our dogs, whatever it is you do with them, because that's where the joy is. That's what we do. I think we can all forget that sometimes. I've done that myself and we kind of get pulled into different things and we think, actually, what is this all about?

It's about trying to further our understanding of dogs and how we can turn up better for them and how we can support them. we've got to find that joy where we can in those relationships that we create with our dogs and our clients' dogs and just being around other dogs. I think it's really important for us. So yes, that's a reminder to everybody, I think. think we'll all be reminded of that.

Victoria (14:45)
You are speaking about supportive walking at the dog behavior conference. Can you tell me and the listeners or tell us a little bit about that?

Andrew Hale (14:59)
Yeah, so thought, you know, we talk a lot, don't we, about behavioral challenges and a lot of conversations are kind of after the event. we've got a dog who's doing this or a dog who's doing that. And I just thought it would be quite nice to do a conversation about some of those setting events, some of those things that we can consider beforehand. And so I've come up with this kind of term, supportive walking, which is quite all-encompassing really. So at the conference, I'll be going into a lot of detail on different things, which I'll...

kind of touch on a little bit here, but because for me it's about how do we support not just that dog, but their nervous system on that walk. Because, ⁓ you know, if I was to take you, we're gonna have a wander around New York or London or wherever it is, and we're gonna be roped together. And we're not allowed to verbalize with each other, we can only behave with each other. ⁓ And I'm gonna do it with you.

exactly as you are now in your, I don't know what you're wearing, your pink fluffy slippers or whatever it is that you've got. So you haven't got a chance to prepare for the terrain or, and I don't know enough about you and your own sensory processing sensitivities or what your current nervous system state is, what your current stress levels are. You don't know about mine either. That's going to be quite an interesting walk quite quickly, I think.

And I don't think it's too kind of dramatic to say, that's kind of the same every time you put a dog's lead on and take them out for a walk. So I'm going to be looking at things like, of course, the environment, but also the internal environment for the dog, sensory processing, sensory integration, how we can try and ⁓ support more regulation for the dog so that they're more likely to be able to cope with the things that come along. Now, you and I both know working with dogs who might

respond say with barking to other dogs on the walk. That quite often it's not about the other dog. It's about that state the dog's in. It's that one extra layer that the dog can't cope with. So it's just about trying to kind of stack those cards in our favor really. A big one of course is pulling on the lead, barking at dogs, wanting to chase cars, all these kinds of things. Part of that is a dog's system that's already dysregulating before we even start.

So hence the supportive walking side of things. And we're just going to look through that. I've got loads of video to show and just to think about some of the things we can do. And this is the big thing for me. I think, especially for the professionals, we can fall into putting a lot of value onto outcome. Going back to dear old Sarah, of course, Sarah always used to talk about, forget about outcome, think about income. And of course, outcome is important, but there is also value to the process. There is value to starting that walk by saying, right,

We're just going to see those kind of, ⁓ we're going to identify what those signals of elevation and those signals of decompression might look like. We're going to identify what grounding might look like for this dog. We're going to identify what we're learning from this dog, including what pulling means for us and allow a process to play out with the dog and to see a value in that process and the observations we can take.

without thinking I must get this dog to walk nicely on the lead. I must get this dog to not do this. I must stop my dog from doing that, which is where we can fall into if we're not careful. And actually when I, the supportive walking side of things is something I've been doing with my clients for a long time. And they're amazed by it because we're giving a richness to their observations about that. Isn't it interesting that when your dog does this afterwards, they're likely to do that. Isn't it interesting that we've got this dog into this situation where

⁓ we've got that more unified gate now, ⁓ the heads down a little bit, the breathing rates change. They've found that bit of grounding to the side. They're able to get their nose down. Ooh, there's a dog that's appeared and they haven't barked at them. Isn't that interesting? All these kinds of things we're going to explore. they just add some more tools to train as talk kits really, and to the general public. might be listening in this as well, of course, because quite often we're working the dog. might do on say one day working with the dog dogs do really well.

The next time we do it, the dog doesn't do so well. Same location, same kind of scenarios. So we beat ourselves up about that. But the thing that's changed often is the internal environment for the dog. You know, they're just not feeling it today or that sensory integrator processes isn't working quite so efficiently. And especially when we think about the role of sensory processing. I've got a great video of Molly who people have seen in previous behavior conferences because I've shared videos of Molly when she was a pup and that.

But even now, there's this great video. went to this place near us, really deep frosty morning. Soon as her paws touched that frost, she was fizzed right up. And as soon as we let her off the lead, did zoomies, zoomies, zoomies, zoomies, zoomies. Because we know that Molly has that. She's very sensorally sensitive to changes. Same as she gets wet. Same if it's windy, you know. So ⁓ I've not met a dog yet that doesn't have some form of

Victoria (19:44)
Yeah.

Andrew Hale (20:01)
sensitivity to something regarding that sensory input. Same with humans, know, Kieran, he has to be really careful about the type of fabrics he's wearing. And interestingly, sometimes when he's a bit more elevated, he'll then notice that he hasn't got the right kind of fabric on for him because he'll get very itchy.

Victoria (20:17)
Hmm.

Hmm. Wow. That's really interesting. I, it reminds me of when I used to ride horses and I was big into horses. and we had a share of two horses. One was a hunter and the other one was a former polo pony. ⁓ we, so I, you know, I was a

pretty good rider, never a competition standard rider, but just more of a gymcana standard rider. I knew though, if it was a windy day, there was going to be some fizz there. I love that word, fizz. There was going to be some spice there and I better be more on my game then because probably more, I was a bit more on my game or a bit more alert. Then maybe the horse was a bit more alert. That wind would go up that tail. Woof. We knew it. So I walked, always be a lot more cautious

I on windy days because I knew that certainly the horses that I was riding at that time, they definitely felt it.

Andrew Hale (21:24)
There's a little experiment you can do with a loved one, because I did this with my husband, just because I'm thinking about things I can talk about at the conference. So I set our shower, which has a wonderful kind of rain rainforest shower thing. So it kind of read out to you to quite cold. And I asked, so he, my long suffering husband, I asked him to go in to this thing. I said, I'm going turn it on. It's going to be quite cold. said, OK. I said, are you ready? said, yeah.

Victoria (21:43)
Hehehehe

You

Andrew Hale (21:51)
And I told him all about Wim Hof and said, it's going to be good for you. It's going to be good for you. As soon as I turned it on, the language was quite fruity, but I asked him some simple math questions and he couldn't answer them until he'd acclimatized, got his breathing better. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Cause he was still like, this is quite cold, but okay. Ask me again. And then he could answer them.

And I think you can do that even with you. We know that ourselves because the brain's more focused on other stuff. It's not thinking about that kind of that front brain isn't worried about things that that kind of sensory integration process is struggling to kind of integrate that new sensory experience. So if we think about dogs, then so many things, isn't there? There's what they feel underfoot. There's kind of environmental conditions. There's pressure. There's kind of the weather pressure conditions as different temperatures. There's the different equipment we put on them.

and having to kind of deal with that. You know, this is the big thing. I get why people use prongs and choke collars from the general public. get that. What I support my clients with is understanding that that extra constriction, that extra kind of friction, if you like, especially with that kind of the way the cranial nervous system works for the dog and everything else is when they're in that more elevated state, they can't decompress from it. Regardless of the fact that being

strangled in the process. ⁓ So I think we just have to understand how much we're expecting of dogs in those situations. And actually, even the training bit, I have my learn, support, teach that I talk about quite a bit, learn from the dog first, support what we've learned. That's really strong, actually, with the supportive walking. And then teach things that are likely to be helpful internally. And after that, you can train what you like. I think it's very important for us to understand that even if we want to do some of the

of sexy training stuff with a dog, we've got to get that internal environment right for the dog ⁓ first really because it helps. And we're understanding that more and more now. You've had wonderful speakers at the conference before looking at these different areas. I just wanted to kind of bring a practical lens to it really.

Victoria (23:59)
And practicality is what are people who come, ⁓ a lot of them are professionals, but also just, the dog lovers that they need to have that. I'm going to take a quick break and I'll be back with Andrew Hale in a moment.

Right, Andy, I am excited because at the end of March, I will be coming to Devon. And I love Devon. It is one of my favorite places. Haven't been there in so long. So this is just a great excuse to get together with incredible minds because we've got the Emotional Wellbeing in Animals conference there. A live conference. We're actually going to be there in person.

Are their tickets still available? I think there might be, but maybe they're not because.

Andrew Hale (24:53)
Well,

are a few. So actually we picked the venue, which is a lovely hotel on the kind of cliff face, beautiful views. ⁓ And this is the third time we've had to up the number of people at the thing. So there are some tickets. I think the residential tickets may have gone. So we did a special residential package, which included your accommodation, all your food and everything else. ⁓ But the conference only ⁓ tickets, I think there's some left there.

Victoria (25:17)
Amazing.

Andrew Hale (25:24)
So have a look at that. of course, is the important thing about this conference is, and you spoke at the online version last year, is looking at all the threads we can pull, regardless of species. you know, whether you're a horse, a cat, a dog, we had a talk last year's conference on the social lives of reptiles. So if we can recognize that and be wowed by that, because I was, Vic, I was like, wow, who would have thought?

And actually, you only see that when the reptile, these were geckos that we're referring to in the talk, when they feel safe, when their needs are met, they're able to be more social. So then you see a social animal is incredible. And the real hope is if we can consider that with a reptile, then we can look at our dogs differently. I think that's the key, isn't it? So yeah, so doing the in-person. ⁓

down here in Devon and you know, I was at ⁓ your presentation that you gave at ABK last year in person as well. And I just know everybody's going to be in for real treat because I think your talk is one of the standout ones. And a lot of people got that because I think you managed to bridge again, some of this theory side of things of understanding more, we're understanding more and more now about the rich lives of dogs, but bridging it to a practical application. I think we've got to start thinking about that more now because it's

⁓ think people can get lost actually there, but you probably heard this yourself with building. Okay. Yeah. I get that. I get that need to feel safe. get the importance of social safety. get all these different things, but what does that mean then? How do we do it? Cause it's, it is challenging. Yeah. And I think this is the, again, going back to the wonderful Sarah, ⁓ this is the thing about staying curious. It's just, it's just not putting pressure on ourselves, adding in those layers, seeing the feedback, being curious about that feedback, not seeing it as being a personal thing. God. I'm not very good at my job.

Victoria (27:01)
Yeah, how do I do it? Yes.

Andrew Hale (27:18)
because it hasn't worked. It's like, hey, what's that telling us then? Because remember, everything is feedback. Everything is feedback, including pulling on a lead, interestingly. This is what we'll talk about with the thing. So yeah, no, I think it's going to be great. And I can't wait to see you and to have you down in Devon. ⁓

Victoria (27:36)
Where do people go if

they need to, if they want tickets?

Andrew Hale (27:43)
So it is a website, which I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'll let you have it. Yeah, think it's yeah, link in the card. I think it's petremedy.co.uk forward slash ewac26. I'm pretty sure that's it. So Emotional Wellbeing in Animals Conference 26. Yeah, so there are some tickets left, but yes, I can't wait to see you there. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be nice. We're focusing on making a very...

Victoria (27:46)
Okay, we'll put it, we'll link it in the podcast. We'll link it in the notes.

Okay. Okay.

Andrew Hale (28:10)
kind of immersive and friendly experience for everybody that's coming.

Victoria (28:14)
I like that. of course, you know, I mean, look, I feel like dog lovers and also professionals are very lucky because unlike when we first started, or especially when I first started 25 years ago, when I really was like, yeah, I'm going to actually, I'm going to invest in this whole training thing. There really weren't this plethora of incredible conferences to go to, to learn from.

And now we have either the in-person or online ones where we can have access to all kinds of incredible information. That's a gift. That is an absolute gift. So with the emotional and wellbeing and animals conference, with the dog behavior conference, these are two conferences that if you have a choice that I absolutely would ⁓ recommend.

And, know, we've been going for so many years, Andy, we've like, think we and I, can't even remember 13th or 14th year of the dog behavior conference. It's either one of those I should know, but it just, I can't believe it.

Andrew Hale (29:22)
You know, it's interesting because this ties us nicely back to Sarah again a little bit because, and the timeline fits with my own relationship with my husband. So I met my husband in 2014, and we'd only been together a little while. And my first big goodbye was to come to your conference. ⁓ and that's where I first heard Sarah Fisher. So there's a big, big connection there. And, I think that was at the net, was it at the army barracks or is it, ⁓

Victoria (29:45)
Yeah.

Yes, it was.

We were in Hampshire.

Andrew Hale (29:54)
Hampshire, that's right, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if that was the first one. Was that the first one?

Victoria (29:59)
Well,

it was the first in-person one here. We had done a couple in the United States because it used to be the Dog Bite Conference. but then, then, and it was still there. And of course we had Jim Crosby and Sarah and, ⁓ you know, Trevor Cooper, a lot of people that were involved in that. It was just, it was a great conference and I...

Andrew Hale (30:09)
That's the right, was the dog bite conference.

Victoria (30:24)
I just, I loved, I know that I met you there. It was, you know, when you're running a conference, it's like your head's on, your head's exploding. It's just, there's a lot, but I just remember it being very positive and such great information. And I remember afterwards that my sister had come, I think with her boyfriend that she had just.

maybe she'd known him for a while, who's now her husband. And my husband was there and we all went out afterwards. We're at the hotel where we were staying and Sarah was there. And I remember we're all sitting out, a lovely evening. We're all sitting outside having a drink and having some food. And I looked over and went, wow, I love this. Here are these, I think Kendall Shepard, that's right, she was there too.

And these incredible minds, I was like, wow, what an industry. And you know, that is when you're connecting with people in person is so special because we do it so much less now.

Andrew Hale (31:40)
Yeah. And that is a shame. think things have changed a bit. I think definitely post COVID as well, think. yeah, I think there's something to be said about doing in person for sure. think you can network and connect. But also I think the wonderful thing about the behavior conference, it was the bite conference and now it's the dog behavior conference, is the depth and breadth of the presentations. And what I would say to people is, yes, it's important to get a formal education.

whether that's with VSPDT and VSA, that's really important. But when you have that, you have to find your own way of making sense of that information and seeing value in that, your uniqueness in that. And the more people you can hear, you'll hear all these presentations and there'll be bits of each one that you'll take away and add to that sense of your own mission, really.

Victoria (32:31)
That's important. You know, always the mission, always the Positively mission, but learning about other things. You're saying that learning about other species as well, I think we can gain so much information about our own species and species that we work with by learning about other species. We were also talking about, it was an interesting two words that I think has connected with me about threat circuits.

Can you explain what threat circuits are, how they impact people and how they might impact our dogs?

Andrew Hale (33:16)
Well, think in a very, from a psychological point of view, it might be worth getting something like Robert Forte or Daniel Short to let you know about their geeky stuff. the brain's always scanning for information. wants to, it wants to stay safe. And there is a difference between data collecting and threat evaluation. And the threat evaluation is going on all the time. But when you're regulated, when you feel safe, then you're more data collecting. A lot of that information is being done subconsciously.

through that sensor integration process. Those circuits are always there, but it needs to be activated. And sometimes something happens in the moment, or your system is already in that kind of less regulated state because of a series of other events, which can build over time. So for example, if there was a big bang went off outside my house now, I'd data collect and have a look outside the window. Bit of threat there, because I'm going to have a look.

I'm not in a war zone. So I'm not going to be presuming it's anything more than probably a car backfiring or something. The issue when those threat kind of circuits are in, and we go into that fight or flight side of things. So the system is waiting for something perceived danger to come. And one thing to bear in mind is ⁓ the brain doesn't distinguish between those different threats. you can, even if you've been experiencing kind of a...

you know, having family members with challenges that aren't necessarily directly related to you, but you've been listening to them. You might not be feeling very well. You might be having other things going on in your business. might be all these kinds of things build up. The thing is with threat circuits is once they're activated, they are looking for threat and they are likely to find them. Even if there isn't.

This is a big challenge, of course, working with humans who have various kind of anxieties and, ⁓ you know, ⁓ because it's trying to kind of get that nervous system to believe that actually the threat isn't there. We will, ⁓ let alone working with a dog who's in a similar situation, because it makes sense for the system to presume threat and see it and deal with it than to miss it and potentially succumb or die from it.

Victoria (35:29)
Yeah, because it's

important for our survival, isn't it?

Andrew Hale (35:32)
Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. Our brain, we like to think as humans that somehow we are, you know, greater than others and other species and we're somehow this high evolved thing, but actually we are just a high functioning animal. And I use that doors of the brain analogy. So if you imagine the brain has lots of doors in it, we need as many doors to stay open for us to be able to process the world and for that sensory integration process to work well, but pain, trauma and stress are big door closes.

They are for our dogs too. And the first doors that start closing for us when we're in that situation are our more rational, cognitive, doors. The doors that stay open are our survival doors. And it's no different for a dog. And this is something to bear in mind. The first doors that are likely to start closing for the dog are the doors that we might have put training behind. If that training has no intrinsic value to the dog in that moment for what they're experiencing, the doors that stay open are those survival doors. And nothing closes doors like,

Victoria (36:28)
So

when dogs come out of their homes on a walk and they are scanning, we might call it, they are aroused and they're continually scanning and we know, my gosh, we're scanning too, because is that, and is another dog gonna come around the corner? So we're both scanning. Those threat circuits, they're activated.

Andrew Hale (36:56)
They are, and this connects very much to mood state too, kind of mood state, because over time we can fall into a pessimistic bias. ⁓ And ⁓ the problem there is it doesn't mean that we necessarily think something bad's gonna happen, although we can easily fall into that, but we're not necessarily thinking something good will. And we could all find ourselves in that state where just little things come along and we just see the negatives in it.

You know, we see the potential threat in it. Somebody might say something quite innocently, but our brain would be like, that's a remark against me or that's whatever, you know. And I think it's same for our dogs when they're out. And I think there's two extremes here that we have to understand. One is that dog who is in that kind of highly aroused state, scanning the environment. ⁓ You know, that nervous system is really quite spicy and anything that comes along that nervous system will kind of respond to it.

And this is why we've got to be careful with the notion of learned behavior for me, because that we can make, this is just my opinion, but think we can, we can fall into just thinking about learned behaviors, just about cognitive learning. It's also what the nervous system is learning. And sometimes you can get an imbalance. This is why CBT doesn't always work for some people because we might change our thought process, but if the nervous system doesn't believe it, we've got that friction. But it also applies to that dog who is an averted commerce shutdown. We can make this

Victoria (38:18)
Yep.

Andrew Hale (38:23)
kind of mistaken thinking that a human or a dog or any animal that's shut down isn't aware. In fact, it's like to be a level of hyper awareness. It's staying very still and looking for that small little glimpse of a potential return to safety, but also looking at everything as being a potential threat.

Victoria (38:43)
You know, I had an experience over Christmas of a family member saying something that was a shock to hear. And it wasn't particularly positive either. And it wasn't directed at me. was just, and it made me so riled up and angry and upset that I went

completely, I just didn't talk. I just sat there and I remember feeling a buzzing in my ears. I remember kind of looking at everybody. They were talking, but I wasn't, I wasn't focused on what they were actually saying. I was kind of trembling. I was so angry by what had been said that it was almost like even though I did nothing,

which is not normal for me. I'm normally, you know, I'll have this conversation, but I, I shut down.

but my body was not shut down. I was so aware of everything, of how my body felt, but also about what people were doing. But I was just trying to like deal with this comment that had been made that was just so clueless.

And I know that that's a very sort of small example, but I do think it illustrates when we are dealing with or coping with information that we have bought in or heard or experienced, that sometimes when we, we, have, we, the only way we can cope is to shut down, is to stop responding.

Andrew Hale (40:39)
I don't think it's a small example. I think it's a very good example. ⁓ it tells us a couple of things. One is just how complicated and nuanced the individuals lived experiences. ⁓ We talk about the three lenses in kind of human therapies. The first lens being the kind of academic science led lens that we like to geek out on.

you know, learning about anxiety and stress and trauma and, you know, sensory processing and all these kinds of things, know, and threat circuits. And that's often the lens that the professional adopts. ⁓ The second lens though is the individual's experience of that pain, that trauma, that stress. And it's very individual. This is the point. The third lens is what we call the third party observer lens.

which can be caregivers, friends, family members, or the person on the other side of the street. And it's also the first lens as well, of course, if you've got a professional who's looking at you, we like to think the first lens is a bit more objective, of course, but not always. So I think this is the point, our own individual lived experience of these things is complicated. I think as professionals, when we turn up to others, human or animal, it's giving time to understand some of that experience without judgment. Comes back to this thing about being curious again. The other thing as well is,

We don't hear with our ears. We don't see with our eyes. We hear and see through a filter of things with our nervous system and our brain. So on a different day in a different setting, you'd have heard that and not had that response. So and we others can dismiss it. Oh, you know, don't be silly or.

you know, what's wrong with you or whatever else, and because they're not understanding that in that moment, your nervous system heard something more than actually what you heard. And if we're already in a bit of a delicate place, if we're already feeling sensitive, if we're already feeling under attack, even though others may not, the important point here is it doesn't have to be the reality. That's really important. And that's why we shouldn't be dismissive of people who struggle or are in a certain situation in their life.

even though our nervous system, thinks what's the problem? And this happens a lot with caregivers could think, well, out of the blue, my dog did this and the other dog wasn't doing anything, they're just walking by, it doesn't make sense. Well, it doesn't to us when our nervous system is in a safe place and not experiencing what that dog is experiencing. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to be rational. We just have to accept it for what it is, which is that nervous system in that state struggling to feel what is an appropriate response.

at times. And that's something that can happen for us humans, especially when we get into that kind of freeze thing. Because we have that kind of power of that extra element of rumination and thought on top, which can mean how do I respond in this situation? And often we internalize. And especially for us humans, we're conditioned from a young age, that whilst we can feel what we want, there are certain expectations on us that we should behave in a certain way.

and that we should conduct ourselves in a certain way, which isn't always a healthy outlook, to the end of it. And this definitely happens within professions, a professional outlook, know, this thing about being professional, you know, which is often a kind of a stick to hit people with because it stops them from being able to say how they feel, yeah.

Victoria (44:07)
Yes, be more professional.

It's, it's, yeah. Sometimes I don't feel I want to be professional, right? But I have to be professional. And don't show your emotions because you got to be professional. Yeah. I mean, that, that's where we so inhibit ourselves.

Andrew Hale (44:21)
Well, we see this a lot in our colleagues in veterinary.

Well, we do and you know, ⁓ our colleagues in veterinary, especially in our colleagues in shelter and rescue, you know, a lot of the time they're being told, don't get emotional, don't get attached, don't get too connected. But the point is they will do all those things, but now they feel they can't talk about it. So there's an emotionally unsafe culture within that working practice. And that's the same thing with our dogs though, isn't it? Because the general public sadly have been convinced the most important thing is a well-trained, obedient dog.

And it's a straight jacket that we've got to free them from by understanding that actually the dog has to be able to behave in order for you to understand that and support them because most people want to. But the dogs fall into the same kind of thing. You you can feel what you want, just don't show it. And for many dogs, they do that. They become performative. I think that we have a welfare problem with dogs because of that lack of awareness of who dogs are and what dogs need. And that's why

the programme that you do at Positively with your education, these conferences are so important. But we've got to get a language right that we can connect to the general public and do the practical stuff. This is why I want to be a bit more practical at the conference this year, because we have to provide that bridge for the general public and say, look, there is a different way for rather than just looking at compliance and obedience.

Victoria (45:45)
Andrew Hale will be talking about an introduction to supportive walking at the Dog Behavior Conference, April 17th to 19th. But you still could get tickets, dogbehaviorconference.com.

Andy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. As always, it's such a pleasure to talk with you. I cannot wait to see you at your conference, Emotional Wellbeing in Animals Conference in Devon. Be there. I will be speaking, I'll be doing a presentation along with some other incredible speakers and of course the Dog Behavior Conference. Thank you so much for coming and speaking with us today.

Andrew Hale (46:24)
Thank you.

Victoria (46:25)
⁓ guys, as Sarah Fisher always said, and we were talking about here, just stay curious, stay curious. Curiosity is the biggest gift that we can have. You take care and I will see you again on another podcast.